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Welcome ye Grand Subscribers and Seekers of Truth and Inner Awareness.
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~ April - Page 3 ~
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Subject: karmic debt
From: "Ragland, Thomas" <TRagland@UMCOM.ORG>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 06:34:07 -0500
Different religious traditions speak of sin (Greek original means to miss the target) or karmic debt for past choices, desires, actions, intentions, volitions. Buddha even hinted that the result of all of this accumulated desire debt is a world of suffering. So given that there is some master plan that we fail to follow and points are taken off of our score accordingly--to whom do we owe, who is keeping score?
Subject: RE: karmic debt transferred
From: "Ragland, Thomas" <TRagland@UMCOM.ORG>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:48:17 -0500
Bear with me, I'm a Westerner, born and bred in the brier patch. Can karmic debt be transferred? Can a few people working for conservation make up for a bunch of people polluting? Can the overall balance depend on transferring karmic debt? Do smart people make up for stupid people? Do enlightened people atone for brutal savages? And if we have reincarnated through a rainbow of experiences, does good karma in the present make up not only for bad karma in our own personal past lives but also in the interbeing of all of our collective pasts? You understand where I'm coming from? Can you throw all of your karmic debt onto some Christ figure and start off now with a clean slate? Is this just a way to detach and extinguish or is the concept too alien to Eastern thought to be valid within that paradigm?
Subject: Re: karmic debt
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:56:24 GMT
Greetings Tom, you wrote: ->Different religious traditions speak of sin (Greek original means to miss ->the target) or karmic debt for past choices, desires, actions, intentions, ->volitions. Buddha even hinted that the result of all of this accumulated ->desire debt is a world of suffering. So given that there is some master ->plan that we fail to follow and points are taken off of our score ->accordingly--to whom do we owe, who is keeping score?
YOU are the debt holder, and YOU are the score keeper. There is no *other*. Westerners tend to *think* that Karma is some tally sheet of good and bad deeds, yet Karma is actually the Natural inclination toward Balance. No *good* nor *bad* but rather only Balance. We speak in terms of *positive* and *negative* Karma but that is only referring to whether the deed reinforces or detracts from Balance. The Western rendition of Karma is the attempt to fit an Eastern Doctrine into Western dogma. Though indeed Karma is a reaping of what is sown, and is not limited to a single incarnation, the Blind Scales of Justice ever Balances. And as Siddhartha Pointed out so aptly, Desire and attachment to that which is impermanent keeps Karma out of Balance thus we are ever Working at Balancing Karma. But as Siddhartha also Pointed out, when we drop that which Causes the imBalance, the Scales of Karma Balance quite Naturally without any real Effort on our part. So it would seem that the Key is to Empty the conditioned contents Causing the imBalance so that Balance will be Restored, not by itself but quite Naturally, and not be so concerned about some tally sheet that does not exist.
On another note: A few people have complained about duplications of postings. Barring anyone posting a message twice, this problem should be rectified because some tweaking was done to the list-server software that operates this Community. Please let me know if this is still happening.
Subject: Re: karmic debt transferred
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:50:57 GMT
Greetings Tom, you wrote: ->Bear with me, I'm a Westerner, born and bred in the brier patch. Can karmic ->debt be transferred? Can a few people working for conservation make up for ->a bunch of people polluting? Can the overall balance depend on transferring ->karmic debt? Do smart people make up for stupid people? Do enlightened ->people atone for brutal savages?
With qualifications: All of the above are False. Karma is not transferred nor can another Balance your Karma. Awakening people do not make up for Sleeping people. The qualifying factor is that since all individuals are connected in some way, all Karma acting on one individual will have effects on others. Thus Karma acts in like terms on large groups of people who interact in some way though acts on the individual in particular terms. This is what is interpreted by Westerners as "group Karma" but is a misnomer in that Karma acts upon a group in like terms because of the interactions of individuals that Karma acts on.
-> And if we have reincarnated through a ->rainbow of experiences, does good karma in the present make up not only for ->bad karma in our own personal past lives but also in the interbeing of all ->of our collective pasts?
Only as addressed above, though no one Saves us but ourself, no one can and no one may, individually we are Causing the imBalance of Karma thus individually we must Balance it. You took out the Loan at the Bank (you enjoyed the Folly Causing Karmic imBalance) so you have to Pay the Loan back (so you have to Balance the Karma). Would your next door neighbor pay your bank loan for you ?
->You understand where I'm coming from?
Western misconception ?
-> Can you ->throw all of your karmic debt onto some Christ figure and start off now with ->a clean slate? Is this just a way to detach and extinguish or is the ->concept too alien to Eastern thought to be valid within that paradigm?
Most so called "Light Workers" like to *think* that another's efforts can Save them, thus continually chasing after some Savior. Yet they best Save themselves because the savior scenario only works in their head. And though Karma (Kamma) is coined from Eastern thought, Karma has nothing to do with East or West (or North or South for that matter). Karma is simply a word or symbol to indicate the ever Present Balance that All of manifest form is inclined to maintain. When we start looking at Karma as simply a Force of Balance and we AS the Present Work on that Balancing by acting and thinking other than a conditioned programmed controlled manipulated automaton we will never have to give Karma much attention. Do what must be done and All will BE AS it must. Like the boxing doll that is weighted at the bottom, you hit the doll and it sways back and forth until it finally rests back at the upright position. Karma gets out of Balance because of our conditioned thinking and behavior, so all we really have to do is start thinking and behaving Rightly (Correctly) and Karma will start to again reach Balance.
Subject: Re: karmic debt transferred
From: "Ram Varma" <ramvarma1@rogers.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:18:04 -0400
Hi EJ, Tom and Community,
Thanks for great questions and straight answers from EJ. This dialogue provides a pretty good picture about karmas. The closest proverb that I can recall in this context is:
"As you sow. so shall you reap".
If we can keep this basic criterion in the forefront while living our lives we have a good chance to keep our balance of karmas in a good shape and enjoy life.
Best Wishes...........Ram
Subject: Re: Good Seed- hee hee
From: "Ram Varma" <ramvarma1@rogers.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 21:25:58 -0400
Hi Sharlene,
You quoted Plato:
"Wise men talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something."
Very powerful statement. Wise people do their things with full awareness and share the same awareness with others so that life could be a wonderful experience for all of us. Generally they talk about being what we are, directly experiencing the wonder of present moment (NOW) and loving that unites us all. They share the experiential keys so that we can all benefit from them and become awakened persons in the course of time.
Of course, there are lots of people who do not fall in the category of "Wise People" but they do have to say something.. There is always a reason for everything. What is the reason for their presence and their sayings (whatever they say)? Interesting. Isn't it?
Subject: RE: karmic debt
From: "Ragland, Thomas" <TRagland@UMCOM.ORG>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 06:48:27 -0500
I was thinking on the drive to work this morning that the state of dharma (getting it all together and perfect, as I define the word) and the effects of karma (our own personal internal mind games of how we want it to be) are entirely subjective--to use a term from Western psychology. Remembering the teachings of Jesus in the gospel, he was pretty much saying the same thing. It is not that you kill or don't kill, it is if you harbor hatred in your heart. It is not that you steal or don't steal, it is if you are controlled by your greeds. It is not who all you have sex with, it is if you are conditioned by lust. You are the gardener of your own heart. If you allowed weeds to grow there, you have to pull them out yourself.
More straight answers please. You have no idea how deep the bs is piled up in the West--from fundamentalists Christians and Muslims trying to scare you into their way of thinking to fluffy little rainbow connection pie in the sky diluted Eastern mysticism that envisions Buddha sitting on a cloud playing Chinese checkers with Krishna. What I always liked about Buddhism is the advice to just sit down, shut up, and breathe.
Subject: Point To Ponder
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 07:05:58 GMT
Greetings Community,
Actually, a few points to ponder {8-> Such as *mind* and *brain* and *Direct Experience*. Most consider the mind and/or even the brain as having something to do with conceptualization and/or intellectualization and/or even perception. Yet the mind is just the mind, a fantastic development of an evolved brain. The mind is but a processing utility of the brain, and has little to do with memory or conceptualization or intellectualization or perception other than processing the information resulting in memory/conceptualization/intellectualization/perception. And the brain is but an organ of the body just like the liver or heart, though different in it's capabilities and functions. So other than the instrument processing the data that results in memory/conceptualization/intellectualization/perception, the mind nor the brain are the culprits of faulty memory/conceptualization/intellectualization/perception. No guilt by proxy because unbeknownst to them is the Evil wrought in their name. That Understood, we can address the Real Cause of Illusions. Which is the conditioned contents that the mind processes. We call it the contents in the mind, but actually the mind is not a container but rather a virtual processor. The contents are the part of the memory that has been influenced in some way. That is, memory that is not of Direct Experience but rather the results of conditioned processing. The Direct Experience IS the Direct Experience all by itself, which needs no memory nor definition nor label. The Realization/Witnessing of whatever it is Directly Experienced. This is Pure Observation/Witnessing/Apperception. Do not blame the Frog for the Jump, as the Frog is just the Frog doing what Frogs do.
Direct Experience is recorded in what is known as memory, yet during Direct Experience there is not even acknowledgement that a Direct Experience is occurring. Though, it is recorded as it is Directly Experienced, thus there is memory of it as we proceed to the next/Present Moment. Though not dwelled on, as it is already part of the unreal past by the time we remember it. Each Moment is anew and thus Present, though recorded in every cell of the body and even it's aura and related aethers as All that is seen and heard and touched and tasted and sensed and otherwise Directly Experienced. Kept as a resource as we Respond to any given Moment. A Potentiality likened to perhaps a library. Not all information in a library is useful. So Work on ourself is the sorting through this resource and eliminating that which would prevent Witnessing/Observing What-IS AS it IS (that which would influence/control/manipulate thinking and behavior). It is a Purging of the resource data.
Yes ?
Subject: Re: karmic debt
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 13:57:59 GMT
Greetings Tom, you wrote: ->I was thinking on the drive to work this morning
First stumbling block, "thinking". In your own words, "sit down, shut up, and breathe".
->that the state of dharma ->(getting it all together and perfect, as I define the word) and the effects ->of karma (our own personal internal mind games of how we want it to be) are ->entirely subjective--to use a term from Western psychology.
Do not let your Dharma get in the way of your Karma, any more than your Karma get in the way of your Dharma. For your Karma IS your Dharma, as your Dharma IS your Karma. Thus subjectivity is but another Western stumbling block. No matter what terms are used, regardless of how Wise they sound, as long as the West clings to their preconceived conditioned ideas and images and meanings and notions of all sorts they will always be tripping on their untied shoe laces.
-> Remembering the ->teachings of Jesus in the gospel, he was pretty much saying the same thing. ->It is not that you kill or don't kill, it is if you harbor hatred in your ->heart. It is not that you steal or don't steal, it is if you are controlled ->by your greeds. It is not who all you have sex with, it is if you are ->conditioned by lust. You are the gardener of your own heart. If you ->allowed weeds to grow there, you have to pull them out yourself.
Indeed, intent is a major factor in any thinking and/or behavior. Yet Blind thinking and behavior is as Foolish as ill intended thinking and behavior. And the Blind following the Blind is yet more Foolish. As intending intention bears false witness. Pulling weeds allowed to grow is chasing one's tail, thus it is not about Gardening but rather about not allowing weeds to grow. Drop the Stick.
->More straight answers please. You have no idea how deep the bs is piled up ->in the West--from fundamentalists Christians and Muslims trying to scare you ->into their way of thinking to fluffy little rainbow connection pie in the ->sky diluted Eastern mysticism that envisions Buddha sitting on a cloud ->playing Chinese checkers with Krishna.
*Roaring Laughter* If you Realize/Recognize the deep pile of B.S., why do you stand there in it ? Do you wear boots ? You have a good start Dear Friend, but it is useless to complain of the feet turning blue while stomping the grapes. Useless to complain about the foul odor while traipsing through the B.S.
->just sit down, shut up, and breathe.
*Deep Bow*
Subject: dharma, karma & gauze
From: "Volker Munz" <volkerm@netidea.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 21:57:47 -0700
kommuniteers,
this place seams to be the onliest joint where a young buck kan kick off his hooves & juggle dharma & kharma like they were long lost cousins nosing around in the selph-same moccasins...
very comfortable here, ray... i'm not even wearing slippers; my monocle is resting on top of the humidor & even though the peanut bowl is empty, i haven't a kare... i am sleeping soundly behind the 'eye' patch...
where else could i bring both my balalaika, my baclava & wear my balaclava at the same time.... the 'eye' rests easy here - as if i was still living in the shady rest motel with klaira, laura & the broad with the mood ring & the indigno burnoose cloaking a 'set' & a schnozz that even richard starkey would have envied...
whatever happened to peewee herman?
you say sumwhere that: "it would seem that the Key is to empty the conditioned contents Causing the imBalance so that Balance will be restored, not by itself but quite Naturally, and not be so concerned about some tally sheet that does not exist"
this is underStood - my question, as always - HOW does One 'empty' the konditioned mind???
do i just pretend to extinguish it by naming it or do i 'have to work as if it were the work that keeps my 'alive'?
might i not empty the wrong mind & becum an Idiot by so doing... out of all my minds, which is the one to empty...
can it be the one that is already empty but desires to full fill it's self purely for the ISNESS of 'full' feelment...
almost ecumenical, no? as in living On hastings & main or the barn three fields removed from the viewing - between my left ear & the right there's a lot of 'aire' - binoculars are always welcome... as are microscopes & those things that plug in your ear & make you hear Louder awl that the Speaker says...
he says nothing but every 'thing' is 'heard' in that silence...
Subject: Re: dharma, karma & gauze
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 17:59:35 GMT
Greetings Volker, you wrote: ->this place seams to be the onliest joint where a young buck kan kick off his ->hooves & juggle dharma & kharma like they were long lost cousins nosing ->around in the selph-same moccasins... -> ->very comfortable here, ray...
Glad you find the Community to your liking Dear Friend. Though it's only intention is to BE AS it IS and not to anyone's liking. Yet if one's liking is BEing What-IS then one would indeed like this Community. Thank you for the feedback.
->you say sumwhere that: "it would seem that the Key is to empty the ->conditioned contents Causing the imBalance so that Balance will be restored, ->not by itself but quite Naturally, and not be so concerned about some tally ->sheet that does not exist"
Sounds pretty heavy, and Ray does get off in the Ozone at times.
->this is underStood - my question, as always - HOW does One 'empty' the ->konditioned mind???
Well, we say that it is a "conditioned mind" but actually the mind is not conditioned. It is the contents that it processes that is conditioned. And the first thing you have to Truly Understand is the mind, in order to Empty it. Once we Understand the difference between the mind and the contents it processes, then we can root out the contents leaving the mind intact. Though some have called Emptying of the mind *Mindless* or *NoMind*. A catchy term but does not refer to the mind not existing, but rather that the mind is not processing conditioned contents. Now, how to get rid of those toxic contents is step two. Release them, let them go, stop using them, stop standing in *it*, stop. Silence the mind, Still the BEing, Void the contents, Slay the Slayer of the Real. Mindfulness, Observe, Witness, do not project any notion into/onto What-IS. When some notion self-arises, as in meditation practice, notice it but do not pay attention to it and let it drift out as it drifted in. At first it is a tiresome task dealing with these self-arising thoughts, but they tire soon and stop arising. They arise to get your attention, thus when no attention is given them they Die a Peaceful Death. Just Witness, just Observe, just BE.
->do i just pretend to extinguish it by naming it or do i 'have to work as if ->it were the work that keeps my 'alive'?
*Roaring Laughter* That is what most so called Light Workers do {8->
->might i not empty the wrong mind & becum an Idiot by so doing... out of all ->my minds, which is the one to empty...
The Two must again be made One. There can BE only One.
Subject: gold Is the Base metal
From: "Volker Munz" <volkerm@netidea.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 19:48:06 -0700
'naught is permanent' - though i've always 'known' this, it's taken me 52 years to put into a 'phonics' that all my 'sellphs' can understand...
rust has a biology 'all its own' ...
the big naught - the zero betwixt two 'others' that eventually 'wake' up to see that the 'naught' is alwaze present by it's absence....
a 'koine' for the busker, a whack to the busker who 'koines'...
is it knot our kontinuity that gives this absence it's heft & weave
is it not possible that the jeans sheathing ur legs were touched by the same hand that sheathed mine with the self same material...
my 'response' to ur 'true?' post...
Subject: Another Point to Ponder
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 19:43:14 GMT
Greetings Community,
Spirituality is simply a word, that points to the Divine Union of Heaven and Hell. The Melding of the Two again made One. The Phoenix arising from the Destruction, the True Nature emerging AS What-IS. The Transmutation of base metal to Gold. Not of Death but of Life, though the two are inseparable as naught is permanent. Thus Death and Life are One, for in Death there is Life and in Life there is Death. Compassion/Empathy/Understanding/Awareness it's True Nature. Though most are conditioned to *think* it has something to do with their Illusion of a self-made God or notions of frivolous love, it is actually relevant only unto themselves. For the Spirit that is known is a False Spirit. A contrived reflection of oneself and little more. An Illusion at best. It is said that such Spirit roams the Abbeys Seeking martyrs for it's cause. Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore".
What you know about Spirituality are the very conditioned ideas and images and meanings and notions of all sorts that Veil the very True Understanding/Realization/Recognition of it. "Forgive them, for they know not what they do". Thus to Empty the contents harbored in the attic, then there will be no "mind" or "god" or even "spirituality". There will only BE Truth/Reality AS it IS this very anew Eternal Infinite Present Moment. Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore".
True ?
Subject: Concepts
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 06:27:30 GMT
Greetings Community,
In a very real sense, one is removed from the Direct Experience when one starts conceptualizing. But the experience can be talked of without conceptualizing or interpreting or defining it. Thus one can Directly Experience the talk of the experience also. But the one communicating the experience may not be conceptualizing at all though the listener may be.
To interact within the world at large conceptualization abounds, though it can be but does not have to be. The one communicating the experience may not be using a concept because he is Directly Experiencing the communication at the time of the communication, though the listener forms one to try to understand it. So the conceptualization could be totally on the side of the listener and not the communicator at all. So do not mistake all communication as conceptualization.
The "bed is over there", for example when greeting an overnight visitor, is a statement and not a concept when the statement is made experiencing the statement. While making the statement one is Directly Experiencing the statement and not the bed. The past is unreal. What is happening at Present is the only Reality and thus not necessarily a concept. If you had an overnight visitor would you *think* whether the bed had walked over to the other side of the room or to another room ? Or whether it had perhaps hidden in the closet or basement ? Would you not already know where the bed is, thus would not have to give it much of a thought ?
The communication of a Direct Experience is not a concept IF we are not clinging to the experience. The Present is ongoing and ever anew. When our full attention is AS the Present whatever is happening, the experience or the communication, all is merely a statement and only perceived as a concept by the listener. When we cling to either the experience or the communication all is a concept because it is unreal, past.
True ?
Subject: RE: Concepts
From: "Ragland, Thomas" <TRagland@UMCOM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 06:52:13 -0500
Just because you can't directly experience something doesn't mean it is not real. What if you heard a blind man saying that there is no such thing as light and dark, as red and blue, because he has never directly experienced it and he has only heard people talking about it. But he cannot directly experience vision. In his own subjective world, it doesn't exist. But we knows better, don't we?
Sit down. Shut up. And breathe.
Subject: Re: Concepts
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:57:35 GMT
Greetings Tom, you wrote: ->Just because you can't directly experience something doesn't mean it is not ->real. What if you heard a blind man saying that there is no such thing as ->light and dark, as red and blue, because he has never directly experienced ->it and he has only heard people talking about it. But he cannot directly ->experience vision. In his own subjective world, it doesn't exist. But we ->knows better, don't we?
Though the sight of something may not be Real to the blind man, he can still experience the Reality of what others see. Sight many times is an actual deferent to actually experiencing Reality, and so those who are blind of sight many times has a better grasp of Reality than those who see. Which is actually beside the original Point.
For all that has nothing to do with the Point of the original post. That Point was that concepts stand in the way of Directly Experiencing whatever because concepts formed are already after the Fact and thus not Real. At best, any thinking due to an experience is at least a half a second after the experience takes place (it take at least that much time for the brain/mind to transmit/process the experience) so the thinking is in the past and thus not Real. So why think about it, just BE it. And in communicating the experience BE the communication, thus both experience and communication ARE the Present which is Real.
Now, back to the second matter that you brought up, about the blind man *thinking* that he knows what the elephant is with just limited understanding due to the blindness, that is conditioned thinking so that must be let go also. Indeed, between Blindness (in many respects, conditioned or otherwise) and conceptualization based on limited understanding is the very foundation of Sleep. And Dreams that we *think* are Real.
->Sit down. Shut up. And breathe.
*Deep Bow* Though I would add: "Sit down, Shut up, Breathe, and BE" without projected Blind misconceptions. Thank you for joining in Tom.
Subject: Re: Concepts
From: "Ram Varma" <ramvarma1@rogers.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:02:43 -0400
Greetings EJ,
You said: >.... So the conceptualization could be totally on the side of the listener and not the communicator at all. So do not mistake all communication as conceptualization.
Beautifully warned not to conceptualize the communications. Great!! Then why don't we understand the communications well and experience them as well as we can rather than being afraid to conceptualize them and walk away from them.
Here is a statement from Gita:
"Therefore Uddahava, cling fast to the Self/Atman; Your mind must be steady, unswayed by the world. Your heart must be free of all selfish desire If you wish to awake and to know who you are .
When you have gained knowledge and wisdom as well, When you can feel one with the whole universe. When you have found Self/Atman and in Self?Atman found delight, Then you will be free, though you still live on Earth."
Proactively speaking, the emphasis, as you have clearly said is to avoid cenceptualization. That means go for understanding the communication and Being It. Of course, this is additional to your words of wisdom, "Being Present in the Moment".
True?
Yes, the Truth of Present Moment Presence is eternal of course. Conecptulaization must be avoided.
Regards........Ram
Subject: Re: Concepts
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 19:44:04 GMT
Greetings Ram, you wrote: ->Beautifully warned not to conceptualize the communications. Great!! Then why ->don't we understand the communications well and experience them as well as ->we can rather than being afraid to conceptualize them and walk away from ->them.
Good question, but "afraid to conceptualize" is really not the situation. The situation is that while harboring conditioned notions we conceptualize quite naturally, as it is the way of the Sleeping realm. Thus we cling to the conceptualization and even the experience we are trying to communicate. So during this whole process we are bound to thinking/conceptualizing, which is passed-tense at this point, which is not where Reality IS. Reality is ONLY AS the Present, thus anything before or after is Illusion. Yet there is no thinking/conceptualizing needed to communicate any experience because when we ARE Present even the communication is Present, IF we Realize/Recognize this.
One of the downfalls of Dualism, to be sure. Dualism needs something to experience and someone to experience it, and of course someone to communicate it to. Yet, Reality can only BE AS the Present with nothing to experience and no one to experience it, let alone anyone to communicate it to. Only when the Two are made again One will we Realize/Recognize this. So Dualists have a hard time fathoming *no concepts*, as it is their very stay.
->Here is a statement from Gita: ->"Therefore Uddahava, cling fast to the Self/Atman;
A fine volume indeed. But I would like to Point out that if we are to Truly Understand such olden texts chocked full of Wisdom we first have to understand the manner in which they spoke/wrote *back then*. Words such as "cling" or "cleave" or "join" was not meant to indication modern definitions of such words, thus such texts are misconstrued to mean just about anything we want them to mean. Your quote was a welcome sight, and should be most enriching to all, I just wanted to Point out that when delving into such texts we must do some extra homework to get a grasp of what those *back then* were actually saying. And to do this we have to take into account that they most like did not mean by the use of various words what those words mean today. We have to get to know the times, the era, those who most likely penned those texts, and those who originally uttered them. In other words, we have to BE there (in a virtual way) in order to Truly Understand what those Great/Grand/Wise texts really have to offer a modern world. Sadly, few do, thus sadly the True Essence of those Wondrous texts is lost to posterity. Those who do go through the effort are Enriched beyond explanation, for THEN they are Truly exposed to Truth/Wisdom AS it IS and not how we are conditioned to *think* it is.
Subject: Re: Concepts
From: "Ram Varma" <ramvarma1@rogers.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:56:11 -0400
Thanks EJ for reminding us how conceptualization steals away the impact of the Power of Truth. Here is one from sage Vashista (Teacher of the times of Rama) regarding conceptualization:
Consciousness plus conceptualization = Thought
Consciousness minus conceptualization = Brahman ( Infinite Universal Consciousness).
The message here as you gave in your earlier posts is the same: Flow effortlessly/spontaneously and directly with the message rather than dissecting it with this or that.
Subject: useful distractions
From: "Ragland, Thomas" <TRagland@UMCOM.ORG>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 07:16:25 -0500
Words - the once source for confusion, giving names to everything to keep us from directly experiencing them.
Words to describe directly experiencing them
So they become a source for confusion to listeners,
Until they one day directly experience what we have experienced
And try to use words to lead others to the experience,
And the confusion is propagated,
But without the useful distraction of words
Could we ever describe the Way to that which is beyond words?
Subject: Re: useful distractions
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:51:18 GMT
Greetings Tom, you wrote: ->Words - the once source for confusion, giving names to everything to keep us ->from directly experiencing them. -> ->Words to describe directly experiencing them -> ->So they become a source for confusion to listeners, -> ->Until they one day directly experience what we have experienced -> ->And try to use words to lead others to the experience, -> ->And the confusion is propagated, -> ->But without the useful distraction of words -> ->Could we ever describe the Way to that which is beyond words?
*Deep Bow* Indeed words are a poor medium for True Communication, yet, especially in CyberSpace, it is the medium at our disposal. So words should be but Pointing to examples, along with mere words. Too often we take the words and twist them into whatever we like to suit our conditioned thinking. But as they say in Missouri, "Show Me".
Indeed we all are Potential Wise Sages, yet we have not Realized/Recognized it yet. Christs or Buddhas who have Forgotten their True Nature. Thus we must endeavor to Remember by letting go of conditioned notions. Yes, labels or names or words are just Pointers that are too often clung to as some truth, yet we are not the words we utter or the titles we hold or the status or stature we are called but rather the deeds we do and the thoughts we think. It is in your own relationship with The Source of Consciousness that Truth is Realized/Recognized. That which you Live after all of the talk is done...... is your own Consciousness Manifesting AS everything you do and/or think.
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