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Welcome ye Grand Subscribers and Seakers of Truth and Inner Awareness.
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~ May 2004 - Page 1 ~
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Subject: Re: A Ray Of Light
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 02:02:51 GMT
Greetings Ram, you wrote: ->While I continually admire the value of your daily rays of light, I was ->wondering if you would kindly explain the practical essence from living of ->lives point of view of your central theme: ".. AS the Silence we Hear, AS ->the Void we See, AS Awakening we ARE". This unified theme may sound like ->beyond the plane of physical consciousness, yet this needs to be directly ->experienced and utilized in day to day living. Would you kindly share some ->practical pointers in this direction?
"Theme"? Only AS Silence there is nothing else worth Listening to, AS the Void there is nothing else worthy of attention, AS Awakening there is nothing else worth BEing. That is just a obvious Fact, not really a "theme". It has to be more than just a theme, it has to be a *Way Of Life*. Simply, when all else fails to satisfy the Hunger all one has to do is 'Just BE It' and the Hunger disappears because there is no one left to get Hungry. As long as there is this Hunger, one knows that he has not quite 'made it' yet. Persistence is the Key. So as a Way Of Life, everything you think or do is its application. Go after the Grand Trickster with a certain vengeance, because he is the one who keeps you Hungry.
Trying to apply some Truth to a Sleeping life will never lead to any beneficial fruition because Truth can not be applied to Sleep. That is like trying to mix oil and water, or put a square peg into a round hole. This is where many error in their Quest, and why the seeming results are limited at best. No, we have to Truly Apply ourself to the Truth instead of the other way around. Which obviously leads to a lot of changes, of which we usually are not willing to change because it is too much hard work or too painful or both. No, Truth can not be made to fit us but rather we must make ourself fit Truth. Or more accurately 'fit for Truth', because as conditioned programmed controlled manipulated robots we are not 'fit for Truth'.
->And also is there is any need to ->descend from this plane to the normal body-senses-mind-intellect plane to ->live this life fully? If so, how?
"Descend"? No matter where you go, there you are. Another error in our Quest is this sense of 'separation'. Duality is a disease, and when one is infected one can not 'see the forest because of all the trees in the way'. There is not Two AS the Present, there is only One of them and nothing else exists but IT. When the Experiencer becomes the Experience, when the Dancer becomes the Dance, when the Singer becomes the Song, even the Present is not present because all else is oblivious and not Real.
->Thanks for your continued contributions to the ongoing unfoldment towards ->awareness...........Ram
Light Mission does extend the hand, as was depicted in The Sistine Chapel Ceiling by Michelangelo. But also as the painting depicts, not many give much of an effort to 'get it'.
Subject: Re: A Ray Of Light
From: "Ram Varma" <ramvarma1@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 06:47:07 -0400
Greetings EJ,
You have responded: "... Only AS Silence there is nothing else worth Listening to, AS the Void there is nothing else worthy of attention, AS Awakening there is nothing else worth BEing.....this is a way of life."
Am I right in understanding you that you are pointing towards the original nature of a person: of silence, void and being awake? Very much in line with the intrinsic Sat-chit-Anand ( truth, awareness and bliss) we are. And silence, void and awake (vigilance) being the modes of living of life to BEing what we are. Looks like the path of renunciation and/or detachment to live this life peacefully, meaningfully and joyfully.
Comments?
Subject: Re: A Ray Of Light
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 02:43:54 GMT
Greetings Ram, you wrote: ->You have responded: ->"... Only AS Silence there is nothing else worth Listening to, AS the Void ->there is nothing else worthy of attention, AS Awakening there is nothing ->else worth BEing.....this is a way of life." -> ->Am I right in understanding you that you are pointing towards the original ->nature of a person: of silence, void and being awake? Very much in line ->with the intrinsic Sat-chit-Anand ( truth, awareness and bliss) we are. And ->silence, void and awake (vigilance) being the modes of living of life to ->BEing what we are. Looks like the path of renunciation and/or detachment to ->live this life peacefully, meaningfully and joyfully.
Your presumption is correct, but this Way Of Life spoken of is most peaceful and meaningful and joyful AS everyday life and everyday interactions. Not really a full renunciation/detachment because All is Embraced, though indeed no clinging or grasping or attached. Likened perhaps to meditation, in that meditation is not a mere practice or isolated to a session but must be Lived to be Real meditation. Likewise, Awakening is to be Lived and not merely an exercise in Spirituality. In fact, Awakening you ARE Life. It is after all the Talk is done, and we start to Walk, do we Realize/Recognize that there is no separation between Heaven and Hell and everything in between. That Reality is the Potentiality of All that IS.
->Comments?
NoThing comes to mind {8->
Subject: Re: A Ray Of Light
From: "Ram Varma" <ramvarma1@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:37:51 -0400
Thanks EJ for shedding more light on the conventional ways of spirituality and making it more practical for day to day living.
Appreciating your kindness and clarity.........Ram
Subject: Re: A Ray Of Light
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 06:55:20 GMT
Greetings Ram, ->Further dwelling on the beautiful rays of light, here is a crisp linkage ->that has emerged from our earlier interactions and I felt it is worth ->sharing: -> ->The Silence we are, we listen to know
Why "to know"? Why not just Listen?
->The Void we are, we see to prepare
Why "to prepare"? Why not just See.
->The Awake we are, we do to fulfill
Why "to fulfill"? Why not just Wake-Up?
->The Free we are, we let-go to Be
Why "to Be"? Why not just let go?
->Only then we are what we are!!!
*Roaring Laughter* We are always what we are, that is the problem. It is only when we are NOT is when we actually ARE. When Present you are not present. Thus when you are present you can not BE Present. Actually there is nothing that is not Present, we just 'think' otherwise.
->I suggest that we, as pure consciousness, dwell the above key-lines and see ->what realizations unfold.
More of the same Dualistic Illusions, it would appear. Like a mirage, when it rains they will disappear.
->Thanks as usual, EJ, for sharing your continued enlightement...........Ram
Well, I would like to share it but I have looked high and low and I can not seem to find it. I was sure that I had some around here but someone must have taken it. There are varmints slinking around here always trying to thieve something. One has to keep an eye on them. That is most likely where the Enlightenment went "to".
Subject: Re: A Ray Of Light From: "Ram Varma" <ramvarma1@rogers.com> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:39:44 -0400
Greetings EJ,
You have responded:
Ram:The Silence we are, we listen to know
EJ:> Why "to know"? Why not just Listen?
Listen for what? What do you do with listening if you don't translate that in knowing what it is and what it is not?
Ram: The Void we are, we see to prepare
EJ:> Why "to prepare"? Why not just See. Ram: We see to prepare ourselves for doing/for taking actions.... a stage in-between doing and knowing; a sort of visualization as if you are really doing. And if any refinements to be done before real doing.
Ram: The Awake we are, we do to fulfill
EJ:> Why "to fulfill"? Why not just Wake-Up?
What do you do with just wake up? It has to translate itself into real doing so that it fulfills life by way of contribution by one's own actions as directed by the inner-self.
Ram: The Free we are, we let-go to Be
EJ:> Why "to Be"? Why not just let go?
We are free in our intrinsic nature. Let-go an attachment to the outcomes of those actions is Being what we are in our essential nature.
Ram: ->Only then we are what we are!!!
EJ:> *Roaring Laughter* We are always what we are, that is the problem. It is only when we are NOT is when we actually ARE. When Present you are not present. Thus when you are present you can not BE Present. Actually there is nothing that is not Present, we just 'think' otherwise.<
I am not sure if I fully understand the depth of your comments. All I was saying was that by moving towards being the above aspects, we are naturally moving towards what we truly are; Sat-Chit-Anand. It is one thing to say that we already are Sat-Chit-Anand. But is it really happening in life according to what we currently are in our current state.? There is a gap that you don't seem to recognize.
Ram: ->I suggest that we, as pure consciousness, dwell the above key-lines and see what realizations unfold.
EJ: More of the same Dualistic Illusions, it would appear. Like a mirage, when it rains they will disappear.<
What you call dualistic, I call it a gap between the intrinsic nature and what we currently are according to which we conduct ourselves in our day to day living. I was suggesting that we need to do the above mentioned things to dissolve the gap. Nothing shall happen without addressing the problem. Will it?
Ram: Thanks as usual, EJ, for sharing your continued enlightement.
EJ:> Well, I would like to share it but I have looked high and low and I can not seem to find it. I was sure that I had some around here but someone must have taken it. There are varmints slinking around here always trying to thieve something. One has to keep an eye on them. That is most likely where the Enlightenment went "to".<
Ego, greed, anger, fear and attachment sort of thieves are there from times immemorial. That's why we need to protect ourselves by doing the things as suggested above. But you come up and reject them by calling them dualistic. I do agree that we do need to drop the conditions, beliefs and concepts so that we are open and embrace the reality as is. But that doesn't mean we don't things like meditation and then use what is shown in day to day living. The hammer to beat the dualistic anvil seems too strong in your notions, even at the cost of the corrective actions to remedy the situation that does not resonate with the intrinsic nature.
Comments!
Best Wishes..........Ram
Subject: Re: A Ray Of Light
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 03:16:26 GMT
Greetings Ram, you wrote: ->You have responded: -> ->Ram:The Silence we are, we listen to know -> ->EJ:> Why "to know"? Why not just Listen? -> ->Listen for what? What do you do with listening if you don't translate that ->in knowing what it is and what it is not?
When there is "what" to listen for, then there is a listener to listen for this "what" (whatever this "what" might be). Duality at its finest. True Listening is an art-form in itself thus needs no other participants such as someone to listen for something. True Listening is Mindful Attentive Awareness. As one might find in the martial arts, not listening for any given 'thing' but rather BEing a Mindful state of Attentive Awareness such that 'whatever' is Heard.
->Ram: The Void we are, we see to prepare -> ->EJ:> Why "to prepare"? Why not just See. ->Ram: We see to prepare ourselves for doing/for taking actions.... a stage ->in-between doing and knowing; a sort of visualization as if you are really ->doing. And if any refinements to be done before real doing.
Present, one is already "prepared" so there is only Watching 'whatever' IS without projecting any conditioned judgements onto/into it. More Duality in this "stage in-between doing and knowing". Present, one IS whatever is done and whatever is known so there is no separation between "doing and knowing". As one might find in martial arts, BEing a Mindful state of Aware Attentive Observing. To refine or personalize this only lends to the Sleeping modus operandi, which could not See past the end of the nose.
->Ram: The Awake we are, we do to fulfill -> ->EJ:> Why "to fulfill"? Why not just Wake-Up? -> ->What do you do with just wake up? It has to translate itself into real doing ->so that it fulfills life by way of contribution by one's own actions as ->directed by the inner-self.
Waking-Up is just another word for 'nothing left to let go'. Waking-Up is a state of BEing, a Mindful Aware Attentive Observing condition of Potentiality. To "translate" What-IS would be to reduce it to some conditioned projection, personalizing it for one's own use and direction leading to conflict and strife and corruption and Suffering of all manner. "Inner-self" is little more than self-identity and self-image and self-importance and self-idolization, misrepresented my the Sleeping realm to be other than it is. One can not BE Present as long as there is a 'self' present because there is nothing Dualistic about the Present.
->Ram: The Free we are, we let-go to Be -> ->EJ:> Why "to Be"? Why not just let go? -> ->We are free in our intrinsic nature. Let-go an attachment to the outcomes of ->those actions is Being what we are in our essential nature.
Indeed our "intrinsic nature" is Free, though imprisoned by our conditioned notions. And letting go of "attachment" AND all conditioned notions will result in our True Nature BEing the foreground of Life. But that as a 'goal' prevents it. If there need be a so called 'goal' it must be letting go, so that Whatever-IS can BE because "we" personally can BE nothing other than our projected self-definition.
->Ram: ->Only then we are what we are!!! -> ->EJ:> *Roaring Laughter* We are always what we are, that is the ->problem. It is only when we are NOT is when we actually ARE. When Present ->you are -> not present. Thus when you are present you can not BE Present. Actually ->there is nothing that is not Present, we just 'think' otherwise.< -> ->I am not sure if I fully understand the depth of your comments. All I was ->saying was that by moving towards being the above aspects, we are naturally ->moving towards what we truly are; Sat-Chit-Anand. It is one thing to say ->that we already are Sat-Chit-Anand. But is it really happening in life ->according to what we currently are in our current state.? There is a gap ->that you don't seem to recognize.
Sleeping, our True Nature is not "happening" in everyday life. That is obvious when one just looks at the state of affairs that the world at large is in. What you see in the Sleeping world is what you call "our current state", which obviously has nothing to do with BEing Awake or our True Nature. We ARE our True Nature, but we can not BE that True Nature while Sleeping. The Sleeping realm identifies with Sleep as progressing Awakening, a day in the life (so to speak). So nothing is to be done except 'let it roll on'. If that were the case there would not be such upheaval in the world. There does seem to be a gap, but that gap is between what the Sleeping realm perceives as Awakening and actually Awakening. Because Awakening is just another word for nothing left to let go, which includes the Sleeping 'self'.
->Ram: ->I suggest that we, as pure consciousness, dwell the above key-lines ->and see what realizations unfold. -> ->EJ: More of the same Dualistic Illusions, it would appear. Like a ->mirage, when it rains they will disappear.< -> ->What you call dualistic, I call it a gap between the intrinsic nature and ->what we currently are according to which we conduct ourselves in our day to ->day living.
Indeed Dualism dictates that there must be 'two', "intrinsic nature and what we currently are" so indeed your expression is Dualistic. Waking-Up is closing this "gap" you speak of such that our "intrinsic nature" IS "what we currently are" because we are no longer Sleeping thus "we currently are" our "intrinsic nature". But while Sleeping our "intrinsic nature" is defined as "what we currently are". If that were the case everyone would be Enlightened. So the "gap" is just perception and identity, without which there would be no "gap".
->I was suggesting that we need to do the above mentioned things ->to dissolve the gap. Nothing shall happen without addressing the problem. ->Will it?
The "gap" being Dualistic, a Dualistic approach will not "address the problem" because the problem is Duality. And Duality only recognizes Dualism as a foundation so would see the "gap" as essential. To get rid of Duality first you must think in terms of NonDuality so you can see the Duality as the defilement that it is. The only way to eliminate Duality is by way of a NonDualistic approach. That is just the way it works. In order to solve the "gap" riddle you have to BE that which is not the "gap".
->Ram: Thanks as usual, EJ, for sharing your continued enlightement. -> ->EJ:> Well, I would like to share it but I have looked high and low and ->I can not seem to find it. I was sure that I had some around here but ->someone must have taken it. There are varmints slinking around here always ->trying to thieve something. One has to keep an eye on them. That is most ->likely where the Enlightenment went "to".< -> ->Ego, greed, anger, fear and attachment sort of thieves are there from times ->immemorial. That's why we need to protect ourselves by doing the things as ->suggested above.
You took this right out of the fine print of the Grand Trickster's manual. It clearly states that you must fight "ego, greed, anger, fear and attachment" with "ego, greed, anger, fear and attachment". Fight Dualism with Duality. If that were the case everyone would be Enlightened.
->But you come up and reject them by calling them dualistic.
Well.....
->I do agree that we do need to drop the conditions, beliefs and concepts so ->that we are open and embrace the reality as is.
Well, perhaps progress is afoot.
->But that doesn't mean we ->don't things like meditation and then use what is shown in day to day ->living.
Here also is the crux of the dilemma, though meditation is a Wondrous Tool to Purge ourself of toxic defilements, while Sleeping no amount of meditation will Purge anything. Defilements will not simply leave because we meditate. We have to Observe the arising thoughts without acting on them and trace them to the source conditioned notion so we can annihilate the source. Even during meditation this must be our intention. In everyday life also, Observe, find the root conditioning that caused whatever thought to arise, spit on it for the defilement that it is, curse it to oblivion. A Reckoning, a rude awakening. In the end it will Cost you your 'self'. As long as there is a 'self' there can be no Self. The 'self' Veils the Self.
-> The hammer to beat the dualistic anvil seems too strong in your ->notions, even at the cost of the corrective actions to remedy the situation ->that does not resonate with the intrinsic nature.
Beating the "dualistic anvil" must be relentless and persistent, with a certain vengeance to Slay the Slayer of the Real. "Too strong" is like saying 'too Awake', though there really is not such critter as "too strong" when is comes to getting rid of defilements. So it depends on how much you want rid of the defilements.
Subject: Cave experience, Ram
From: "Johannes Kieding" <lmrepresentative@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 22:05:04 +0000
Ram,
Do you see the duality in your lines? Duality -- self. Why not take the Leap?
I had an intersting experience not long ago that might be intersting to hear during a three day cave retreatin seclusion:
Something just wild happened, I left the cave early, at the end of the third day. What follows is a telling of some of the experiences I had: Third day, afternoon. Pain. And more pain. Body is in great pain. Bloody, conditionings pleading on their knees to be processed. A depression had assailed me earlier.
Let me recapitulate, starting from the first day. I wrote the following at the end of the second day, after 9 hours od meditation: Meditated for 9 hours today. Second day. Towards the end of the day, I entered Samadhi rather briefly. The concentration and meditaion is deeper than yesterday. Yesterday it was raining, wind howling, and thunder and lightening spurred me onward. Cold. Wet. I was determined. I was thankful I had brought some nuts and dried fruit, for otherwise I don’t think I would have made it. Realizing how utterly selfish I am. Self-image suffered.
It is wonderful to be out here. The solitude is making me dissolve. Yesterday there was a lot more discursive thought, mostly coming from inferiority notion and revenge protection game. Today my head is quet, like after a storm. It must be true that the drivel cannot survive without the mental chatter.
Earlier this morning I saw a beatle crawling on the ground. Boy was it determined, held a super steady course, climbing over leaves and twigs in a steady fast pace. It was a real climber. It would continuously fall over on its back, but with all it’s might it would muster itself up again and continue its march. Determined it climbed on. With great interest I observed it. It was coming right towards me. After only a second of hesitation, it started climbing up my leg. Such single-mindedness! I helped the fella over, put it down behind me, and it continued its journey over twigs and leaves, a mighty junge for the little insect. I bowed after it, grateful for the lsson Ihad just received.
Interesting, this time in the cave, the loneliness isn’t getting tome. Last time it was breathing down my neck continuously. A few times today I would mediate without a brake for almost two hours. As the body paind and the Trickster screamed for attention, I divied deeply into self-denial. Surrender. I had to. Had to surrender and BE the moment. Now my understanding of Dying is a bit better.
As long as one refuses to be the Way, there will always be impatience and anxieties. Can I just get enlightend so that I can go on with my life and do all the things Iwant to do, is probably in the back of the mind, causing the impatience. Being the Way is the only option for the serious student. If you refuse, whatare you waiting for? Itnever comes in the future. The Way is Now and always Now. Third day. 4:30 in the morning. Had the most violent dreams. Juts like the previous night.
Now… to the experience that made me leave early in utter excitment: Third day, between 13:20PM AND 13:55. A depression had assialed me earlier. I sit steadfast. God it hurts. I had finally gotten the fact that Imust just continue with the practise and let the mind be stormy as much as it wants. No self meditation had turned out to be, often tims,a repeating of mantra. I am near the edge. Can barely stand it. Then I remember the beatle. Just go on.
I take a tight hold of mymantra, and just go on into the darkness behind closed eyes. Come hell or high water, I will not be distracted. Metaphorically speaking: on my knees, bloody, dragging myself onward. Many times I am about to investigate a thoughts or look away from the void, but I refuse. The beatle. …Then.. I feel that I am braking through… A cascade of white Light ushers over me, light, white white light. My heart is beating so fast it could pop out of my chest. The beatle! Just like an orgasm, you begin to feel the contractions, I was thrown into this orgasmic white light, sparkeling like fire works. It felt like a great currnt of electricity was going through my body, Had toconsciouslt relax my body, try to get my breathing and heart normal. TheLight orgamsm lasted… I don’t know, perhaps 3 minutes. Self! Finally! God exists! Iremind myself that no experience should allow me to be distracted, and I continue with walking meditation. But I can’t get it out of my mind. Must go there again, must see the light again! Fully realizing that grasping afterthe experience will push it away from me, Itry tosit again without grasping or expecting. After 25 minutes or so, I feel how the orgasmic contractions begin tocome, and the sparkeling light is vaguely seen, myhear starts beating madly again, and just as Iamabout to enter the orgasm again (and this time I notice it seems to come out of my crown chackra) I must have gotten too excited, for I go back to normal, semi Samadhi state.
Closing my eyes, I almost imediatly enter Samadhi (minor though) . I am notr eally on theg round yet, but I feel…. Normal.. except… not. My nervs feel… tired. Wide awake. Body vaguely burning.
Subject: ah
From: "Johannes Kieding" <lmrepresentative@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:27:47 +0000
Zen Master you, Ej.
Subject: Re: ah
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 03:31:42 GMT
Greetings J, ->Zen Master you, Ej.
That is another item I have been trying to locate, no doubt also thieved by wayward varmints. Looked everywhere but found Nothing, zip, Zero. And I 'think' that there must be holes in my mind, because every time I put something's location in there it leaks out. So 'I' can not find anything anymore. 'I' can not even 'find' my 'self' anymore. In bad shape to be sure <;-)
Subject: [No Subject]
From: "Johannes Kieding" <lmrepresentative@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 05:25:01 +0000
> That is another item I have been trying to locate, no doubt also >thieved by wayward varmints. Looked everywhere but found Nothing, zip, >Zero. And I 'think' that there must be holes in my mind, because every >time I put something's location in there it leaks out. So 'I' can not find >anything anymore. 'I' can not even 'find' my 'self' anymore. In bad shape >to be sure <;-)
As said :)
Subject: Re: Cave experience, Ram
From: "Ram Varma" <ramvarma1@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:55:09 -0400
Thanks Johannes for sharing your interesting experience. See my latest communication with EJ regarding self and SELF.
Regards.......Ram
Subject: Re: A Ray Of Light
From: "Ram Varma" <ramvarma1@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:52:36 -0400
Thanks EJ for your enlightening comments. In conclusion you have said:
>>As long as there is a 'self' there can be no Self."
The SELF, in your terminology, if I understand it correct, is the original True-SELF. And self refers to those thieves made up of ego, greed, anger, attachment and deep indulgence in the material/physical enjoyments..etc. Will it not be a natural way then, as pure consciousness, to directly dwell the SELF and not pay pay much attention to the self. By so doing the SELF will gradually become more predominant (become more Awake) and self (defilements) will start to evaporate on their own.
>>Defilements will not simply leave because we meditate....observe/find the root conditioning..spit on it..curse it to oblivion....a rude awakening<<<
Isn't this like wrestling with the devil? Why not ignore, in awareness, the devil that it is the devil. And dwell/pay maximum attention to the SELF as pure consciousness?
>>>..And letting go of "attachment" AND all conditioned notions will result in our True Nature BEing the foreground of life. But that as a 'goal' prevents it<<<
Is it that a goal becomes an expectation that is followed by an attachment? A sort of recycling process? or why?
Best Wishes........Ram
Subject: Re: A Ray Of Light
From: Sharlene <Sharlene@light-mission.org>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:16:39 -0700
> >>As long as there is a 'self' there can be no Self." > >The SELF, in your terminology, if I understand it correct, is the original >True-SELF.
Shar: There is no true self, in the same way as there is no self. Both are an illusion of the mind and its beliefs. Upon awakening, the self and true self both disappear. Any self is only for the sake of communicating the uncommunicable, as is any label given or thought about.
> >>Defilements will not simply leave because we meditate....observe/find the >root conditioning..spit on it..curse it to oblivion....a rude awakening<<< > >Isn't this like wrestling with the devil? Why not ignore, in awareness, the >devil that it is the devil. And dwell/pay maximum attention to the SELF as >pure consciousness?
Shar: To dwell or pay maximum attention to any self is not pure consciousness. That takes effort, and effort is achieved only through the self.
> >>>..And letting go of "attachment" AND all conditioned notions will result >in our True Nature BEing the foreground of life. But that as a 'goal' >prevents it<<< > > Is it that a goal becomes an expectation that is followed by an attachment? >A sort of recycling process? or why?
Shar: any goal is an attachment to an outcome. When there is nothing to achieve, there is nothing to stop or prevent awakening. The pathless path.
Good evening everyone. How have you all been?
Subject: Re: Cave experience, Ram
From: "Ram Varma" <ramvarma1@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:12:05 -0400
Hi Johannes,
You have said:
> Do you see the duality in your lines? Duality -- self. Why not take the Leap?<<
In my understanding, the Leap you have mentioned above, consists of three mini-leaps:
1. We consistently meditate.
2. We consistently be vigilant of the defilements and wrestle them down.
3. We let go.
Is there anything else to unveil the SELF from the self?
Comments?
Thanks.......Ram
Subject: enough playing around
From: "Johannes Kieding" <lmrepresentative@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 06:36:31 +0000
Hi Ram!
You have said:
>In my understanding, the Leap you have mentioned above, consists of three >mini-leaps: > >1. We consistently meditate. > >2. We consistently be vigilant of the defilements and wrestle them down. > >3. We let go.
Agree. But at one point I think there must be a Leap. When you come to a pointg where you cannot progress further until the self is done away with. Also, there might be another ingredient; like a flower that needs the right soil, amount of water, sunshine, in order to grow, we need tobe in the right environment that will support our effort to start awakening. Commit to a Master. Do whatever it takes. Just from the Kiss I receivd the other day, I know that it is worth anything. You and EJ seem to have a good connection, take it seriously. Enough playing around, no?
Subject: Re: A Ray Of Light
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:28:34 GMT
Greetings Sharnanda, you wrote: ->Shar: There is no true self, in the same way as there is no self. ->Both are an illusion of the mind and its beliefs. Upon awakening, the self ->and true self both disappear. Any self is only for the sake of ->communicating the uncommunicable, as is any label given or thought about.
*Deep Bow*
->Shar: To dwell or pay maximum attention to any self is not pure consciousness. ->That takes effort, and effort is achieved only through the self.
*Deep Bow*
->Shar: any goal is an attachment to an outcome. When there is nothing to ->achieve, there is nothing to stop or prevent awakening. ->The pathless path.
*Deep Bow*
Back is getting tired.
->Good evening everyone.
Good whatever it is at Present to you.
->How have you all been?
We have been. And obviously you have also been. Thus all has apparently been. And all no doubt will be. So the question is, 'how is Present?'. Yet, how can 'I' know when 'I' am not present. So perhaps Present simply IS. "How", 'I' have no clue |:-) But it is good to hear from you. As Mind-less as hearing might seem.
Subject: Re: A Ray Of Light
From: ejLight@light-mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 02:35:31 GMT
Greetings Ram, you wrote: ->Thanks EJ for your enlightening comments. In conclusion you have said: -> ->>>As long as there is a 'self' there can be no Self." -> ->The SELF, in your terminology, if I understand it correct, is the original ->True-SELF.
Well, True Nature, Original Face, Source Essence, Self, has been verbalized many ways, Pointers.
->And self refers to those thieves made up of ego, greed, anger, ->attachment and deep indulgence in the material/physical enjoyments..etc.
And all toxic conditionings thereof.
->Will it not be a natural way then, as pure consciousness, to directly dwell ->the SELF and not pay pay much attention to the self.
All is Consciousness and quite Pure, defiled by conditioned notions. To dwell AS Self you have to delete the 'self' (self-image, self-identity). So as long as the is a 'self' to ignore then Self can not BE. Besides, who is it that ignores? The self ignoring itself? Sure!?!
->By so doing the SELF ->will gradually become more predominant (become more Awake) and self ->(defilements) will start to evaporate on their own.
Of course, why did 'I' not 'think' of that. Obviously the solution to Enlightenment. No muss no fuss, 'I' like that. Nothing to do, Salvation will take care of itself, of course, no need to complicate the simple. But this is what has been 'thought' since time immemerable, hundreds of thousands of years, with no appreciable improvement over the neanderthal mentality. So perhaps it is too simple. 'I' will have to 'think' about this.
->>>Defilements will not simply leave because we meditate....observe/find the ->root conditioning..spit on it..curse it to oblivion....a rude awakening<<< -> ->Isn't this like wrestling with the devil? Why not ignore, in awareness, the ->devil that it is the devil. And dwell/pay maximum attention to the SELF as ->pure consciousness?
An old adage, "ignore it and it will go away". That is a sure winner. And why there are only two or three people left in the world who are not yet Enlightened. That is obvious. Good call Dear Friend.
->>>>..And letting go of "attachment" AND all conditioned notions will result ->in our True Nature BEing the foreground of life. But that as a 'goal' ->prevents it<<< -> -> Is it that a goal becomes an expectation that is followed by an attachment?
Ah, Let There BE Light.
->A sort of recycling process? or why?
Not "recycling" but rather 'reducing', reducing the Two to None. Because all there IS is None. Dual = Two, NonDual = Zero or 0 or Not Two or NoThing or ____.
->Best Wishes........Ram
BE Well and Mindful Wonderful Friend, Zikr -- e.j.
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