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Welcome ye Grand Subscribers and Seekers of Truth and Inner Awareness.
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~ October - Page 2 ~
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Subject: Example
From: Victor Torrico <VTorrico@cfw.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:03:00 -0400
Dear E.J.,
Would you give an example of one powerful conditioned notion --- and then the exact steps to be taken to eliminate this notion? Perhaps the specifics may be useful as a guide. For if there is no way to eliminate the notion what is the use of trying?
Subject: Re: Example
From: ejLight@Light-Mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:04:56 GMT
Greetings Victor, you wrote: ->Would you give an example of one powerful conditioned notion --- and then ->the exact steps to be taken to eliminate this notion? Perhaps the specifics ->may be useful as a guide. For if there is no way to eliminate the notion ->what is the use of trying?
That killing is justified/justifiable. Drop the reason that we think killing is justified/justifiable. Which means to drop greed/opinion/selfishness/judgement/separateness. All conditioned notions are quite complex, interwoven within a Web constituting our perception and our clinging to it. There are supporting factors that also must be dealt with, so it is really never simply a conditioned notion and it's elimination.
No Pointing can be a "guide", but rather simply a Pointer. Others can Point to the problem but we ourselves must Realize/Recognize the problem for ourself then do whatever needs to be done about it. WE must become our own Guide, WE must become our own Disciplinarian, WE must become our own Watchdog. WE must become our own Teacher. AFTER we let go of the conditioned notions. And no matter how many times conditioned notions are Pointed out, until we ourself Realize/Recognize those conditioned notions all the Pointing in the world will be for naught.
But one can not "try" to let go of conditioned notions, one must *Just Do It !* Either Do It or do not do it, but "trying" is simply a rationalization for not being able to do it. For conditioned notions are those that we cling to for some seeming security and permanence, dearly beloved, indoctrinated starting at an early age. It may sound easy to simply let them go, but actually letting them go turns out to be a most arduous involved and most times Painful undertaking. So "try" not, Just Do It !
"Because human beings pursue all external events and objects, their internal feelings and thoughts fluctuate with these external conditions. As a result, their minds are kept captive by all sorts of external factors and cannot be released." -- Buddha
Subject: Re: Example
From: Victor Torrico <VTorrico@cfw.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:07:24 -0400
On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 02:04:56PM +0000, E.J. wrote: > Greetings Victor, you wrote: > ->Would you give an example of one powerful conditioned notion --- and then > ->the exact steps to be taken to eliminate this notion? Perhaps the specifics > ->may be useful as a guide. For if there is no way to eliminate the notion > ->what is the use of trying? > > That killing is justified/justifiable. Drop the reason that we think > killing is justified/justifiable. Which means to drop > greed/opinion/selfishness/judgement/separateness. All conditioned notions > are quite complex, interwoven within a Web constituting our perception and > our clinging to it. There are supporting factors that also must be dealt > with, so it is really never simply a conditioned notion and it's > elimination. >
It appears to me that if a notion arises along with all its rag-tag hangers-on that one has two choices:
a. Get caught up in thought/emotion thus strengthening the notion.
b. Simply watch the thought/emotion arising and its subsequent farewell --- this would thereby allow it to pass into oblivion. I suspect this may occur a time or two until this notion no longer arises. I
> No Pointing can be a "guide", but rather simply a Pointer. Others > can Point to the problem but we ourselves must Realize/Recognize the > problem for ourself then do whatever needs to be done about it. WE must > become our own Guide, WE must become our own Disciplinarian, WE must become > our own Watchdog. WE must become our own Teacher. AFTER we let go of > the conditioned notions. And no matter how many times conditioned notions > are Pointed out, until we ourself Realize/Recognize those conditioned > notions all the Pointing in the world will be for naught.
Who can you hire to do the work? Ha!
> But one can not "try" to let go of conditioned notions, one must *Just > Do It !* Either Do It or do not do it, but "trying" is simply a > rationalization for not being able to do it. For conditioned notions are > those that we cling to for some seeming security and permanence, dearly > beloved, indoctrinated starting at an early age. It may sound easy to > simply let them go, but actually letting them go turns out to be a most > arduous involved and most times Painful undertaking. So "try" not, Just > Do It !
Is the "Do It" simply the consciousness watching the rise and fall of the notion?
Subject: Re: Example
From: Victor Torrico <VTorrico@cfw.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:36:27 -0400
On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 07:23:14PM +0000, E.J. wrote: > Greetings Victor, you wrote: > ->It appears to me that if a notion arises along with all its rag-tag > ->hangers-on that one has two choices: > > There is another example of a conditioned notion - choices. We fool > ourself when we *think* that we have the volition to choose this or that. > As though we have some control over our mind. Sad Fact is that our mind, > the conditioned contents thereof, controls our thinking and behavior. So > mentally we can contrive all sorts of fantasies of the seeming right and > wrong of this or that and judge that something is better than another. > But guess what, after we go through all that mental gymnastics we always > *choose* what we have been conditioned to *choose*. Not much of a > *choice*, I would say.
How can anyone *Just Do IT !* if we have no volition and the conditioned content of the mind controls the mind. Something is rotten in Denmark here. What or who is to do the *Just Do IT !*? I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I'm just trying to understand what to do. An example might be helpful. Can we choose or not choose to *Just Do IT !*? There seems to be a paradox here. Either one can override their conditioning or else they cannot or else they simply do nothing. Very strange. Is something beyond the mind to accomplish the deconditioning? I agree whole heartedly that we are conditioned --- but then what?
Subject: Re: Example
From: ejLight@Light-Mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 19:23:14 GMT
Greetings Victor, you wrote: ->It appears to me that if a notion arises along with all its rag-tag ->hangers-on that one has two choices:
There is another example of a conditioned notion - choices. We fool ourself when we *think* that we have the volition to choose this or that. As though we have some control over our mind. Sad Fact is that our mind, the conditioned contents thereof, controls our thinking and behavior. So mentally we can contrive all sorts of fantasies of the seeming right and wrong of this or that and judge that something is better than another. But guess what, after we go through all that mental gymnastics we always *choose* what we have been conditioned to *choose*. Not much of a *choice*, I would say.
->Who can you hire to do the work? Ha!
WE must be our own Laborer. So we must Do It ourself.
->Is the "Do It" simply the consciousness watching the rise and fall of the ->notion?
Whatever needs to be done, we *Just Do It !* No mental gymnastics, no weighing it worthiness, or it's profitability, or it's likability, Just Do It. Without projecting our conditioned notions into/onto it.
Subject: Re: Example
From: ejLight@Light-Mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 02:25:42 GMT
Greetings Victor, you wrote: ->How can anyone *Just Do IT !* if we have no volition and the conditioned ->content of the mind controls the mind. Something is rotten in Denmark here. ->What or who is to do the *Just Do IT !*?
And yet another example of a conditioned notion -- who. You asked me to give examples yet you are offering more than I. Which brings us around full circle to the Fact that we already have the answers to the questions we ask others -- if only we would Realize it. Open Honest Self-Observation is the Key. As said before, all the Pointing in the world will reveal nothing UNLESS we ourselves Openly Honestly look at what is Pointed to. We can not See when we are conditioned not to Look.
You brought up a Vital Point, which is indeed "who" would be able to *Just Do It !* A Vital Point that all Wise Sage have brought up, namely "Who am I ?" "Who" indeed, for there is actually no one to Do anything. We only *think*, in our conditioned mind, that WE Do things. Whatever needs Doing must get Done, and it does get Done, yet there needs no one to Do it. We are conditioned to give credit to a Doer, when there is no Doer there is no credit that can be given. Does it give the Doing more credence to have someone Do it ? It is of little importance to know who Does anything, but rather the Fact that it gets Done. The Dualistic notion that there is something to Do lends itself to someone to Do it. What use is labeling the Doer ? Or what needs Done ? When we have to be told that something needs Doing, when what needs Doing needs to be Pointed to, perhaps it is time to Wake-Up.
-> I'm not trying to put you on the ->spot. I'm just trying to understand what to do.
There is little to "understand", as when we have to be told that something needs Doing, when what needs Doing needs to be Pointed to, perhaps it is time to Wake-Up. Ask yourself the question "Who am I ?"
-> An example might be helpful.
Thus far in this thread, three examples have been discussed though more there to discuss. If three was not Helpful then I dare say that a million would be no more Helpful.
-> Can we choose or not choose to *Just Do IT !*?
That was the second example.
-> There seems to be a ->paradox here. Either one can override their conditioning or else they ->cannot or else they simply do nothing. Very strange. Is something beyond ->the mind to accomplish the deconditioning?
No paradox Dear Friend, nor is Awakening and either/or situation. But indeed, not so much "beyond" the mind to let go of conditionings for the mind is needed in this so called "deconditioning". Though somewhat relative to one's Evolved/Involved state of BEing to a lesser or greater degree, it is more to do with just how Open and Honest one allows oneself to be with oneself. Much to do with how Fearful one is of losing one's most prized posession -- one's conditionings, one's opinions, one's beliefs, one's attachment to phenomenality, one's sense of security, one's sense permanence. We Talk of Higher Self and Spirituality and God, but they are just conceptual life-lines for we Fear what you can not *know*. Our seeming reality is what we *know*, and what we *know* is a concept so then that concept is reality. Thus we trade our Life for our life, ourSelf for ourself. Unprofitable trade {8->
-> I agree whole heartedly that we are conditioned --- but then what?
How would *I* *know* ? *I* do not *know* ! *I* can not *know* ! For the *I* and the *known* are conditioned. Can the eye see itself ? AS the Silence we Hear, AS the Void we See, AS Awakening we ARE. When there is only Silence/Stillness/Void/Awakening there IS only What-IS. Emptying the mind of it's perception/contents there is only Apperception of What-IS AS it IS without the projected contents of our mind/perception. Only when *what you think*, only when your conditioned ideas and meanings and perception, are no longer important to you will you be Ready to Openly Honestly Look at yourself in the Mirror of Truth. That is, Open Honest Self-Observation of every arising thought and resultant action. THEN we can take the stage props down and put away our paper machete world so as to BE the Life that we ARE. THEN we can "Drop The Stick".
Subject: re: eggsamples
From: "Volker Munz" <volkerm@netidea.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:27:31 -0700
hi victor
am listening to joan baez doing 'love song to a stranger', as my toes peck at the keyboard... i wanna say that what ur asking ray i wanted to ask as well: - show me how 'this' is done... it is purely in the doing - not that i know, but being on this list for sum time now it don't much matter anymore becuz the knowing is inherent... or assumed... i don't really know, ray komes akross very kryptik at times & at other times i KNOW from the inherent knowing in my self...
tis why i'm here - i got too much of the konditioned mind in me & i get no definite answer on how to get ridd of it... in my heart of hearts i know - for ray to tell me other than the way he tells me would be nothing but thin air... which is what i breathe when i check into this list - a breath of Eire...
we know all this shit already, vik; it's the doing & being It that makes it happen... what's ray saying - be ur self if u kan find IT... the IT is u... lend me ur shovel & i'll lend u mine, victor - we're looking for the same thing - US - which to me is a small boy lost in the miasma when the guy that sexed eggs had problems of his own & put me into the brown (tho still inorganik) fold... where i don't belong... i don't belong anywhere... in one sense i am & in an other, i am knot - nevertheless, i exist... i wanna do more than exist - i wanna BE but BEING is such a variable that i may miss the parade as it passes... no matter - eventually i will distink the wet from the dry, the hot from the kold - my experience will bring me to my self...
adieu, volker - a carthinoginian from the meroviginian times...
Subject: Re: eggsamples
From: ejLight@Light-Mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 04:20:41 GMT
Greetings Volker, you wrote: ->komes akross very kryptik at times
"Cryptic" ? Ha ! Try reading one of your posts {8->
->we know all this shit already, vik; it's the doing & being It that makes it ->happen... what's ray saying - be ur self if u kan find IT... the IT is ->u...
*Deep Bow* We can not work at Awakening, but rather Awakening is a Natural Unfolding when we stop working at it. All we have to Do is keep a close eye on the arisings of the contents of the mind. As they arise look at them under a micron microscope scrutinizing every nook and cranny. IF they are for our Awakening let them Pass, if they are from the Grand Trickster "shoot'em dead", blow the smoke away from the end of the barrel and holster the piece until the next varmint arises.
-> i wanna do more than exist - i wanna BE but BEING is such a ->variable that i may miss the parade as it passes...
That for which we Want we can never Get, that for which we Seek we will never Find, so indeed all of Life is a variable. When we stop Wanting we Get, when we stop Seeking we Find, when we stop looking for the parade we Realize/Recognize that we ARE the Parade.
->show me how 'this' is done...
Open Honest Self-Observation of All arising thoughts BEFORE acting/reacting. Let go of the Toxic ones (though it may be Painful because they are dearly beloved security blankets) and let the others Pass. This too will Pass. Nothing is worth the Blocking of Awakening. So no matter how pleasant and dear some foolish notion is, if it stands in the Way of your Apperceiving Truth/Reality AS it IS (not how you are conditioned to perceive it), drop it. Or, as in present times, do not be fooled by it.
Subject: Re: Example
From: ejLight@Light-Mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 05:02:24 GMT
Greetings Community,
Something just in from The Ray:
Subject: A Ray Of Light From: Da Ray
"Siddhartha dwelled heavily on *craving* being our major Cause of Suffering. And what is craving but a desire ? The desire to have and the desire not to have, the desire to become and the desire to get rid of, as well as the desire of pleasures of the senses.
"Pleasures of the senses are those things that taste good or feel good to our sense of taste and smell and sight and hearing and touch. That which gives you physical pleasure, which includes all things tangible such as food and drink and smoke and sex and fame and fortune. Which mostly ends up in disappointment and dissatisfaction. That which we do not have we desire (crave) to get. There is also the desire to get rid of unpleasant physical things, which we usually express in anger and fear or even jealousy.
"We not only have these desires but we also cling to them as a security blanket. We cling to hem because of their instant or short term pleasure. Which, we fail to Recognize, does not end them but rather sets up a continuum of their steady flow. We are not satisfied with our present lot, whatever that may be, and so a certain *thirst* is established -- which generally solidifies into greed and selfishness. This thirst is the power behind the continuous desire of this or that and the desire to get rid of this or that. And so it is a vicious circle of grasping and clinging -- grasping for that which we desire and clinging to the notion that it will satisfy this thirst. Obviously it never does. And as the tiger chases it's tail all we get are Sambo's pancakes.
"So why do we crave anything ? Why is there this thirst to see or hear or taste or touch or have anything ? Beyond, of course, the basic instinctual needs of survival (food, shelter, protection from the elements). This is *motive* or *intent*. *Why* ? Pear pressure, authority demands, acceptance, reward, etc ? Being cleaver as we are, we learn quickly how to satisfy these thirsts even though the satisfaction is but a flash in the pan. So we live from flash to flash, to keep up with our pears and comply with authority and be accepted and get rewards. And since we know that it works on us we in turn use it on others -- to perhaps, in some sadistic way, balance the control and manipulation we suffer. A vicious circle of everyone controlling and manipulating each other. An ever self-perpetuating game.
"So indeed desire or craving is the Cause of our Suffering, but the Cause of the Cause is our clever control and manipulation of our environment for our own selfish intent or motive. We continuously condition each other and continuously reinforce our own conditionings (better known as habits). So we habitually live our lives showing others how life is lived. What vile creature we make of our little new born Gurus. Most never get the chance to understand this and so they continue passing the torch on to their offspring. The Grand Trickster's torch must be extinguished. Hence, let go of the conditioned ideas and images and meanings and notions of all sorts. Our cravings are very deeply rooted, and the roots re very entangled in every aspect of our life."
*Deep Bow* Ray.
Subject: Re: eggsamples
From: Victor Torrico <VTorrico@cfw.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 05:21:04 -0400
Hi Volker,
Yeah, we know down deep but still get caught up in our mind games. I'm starting to see that my mind game is "When I understand logically what I am doing then I'll be able to find out what it's all about." So I'm putting off into some non-existent future what can only happen in the real now moment. The mind loves this cause in can keep perpetuating its non-existent self by avoiding the shining of the light of awareness on its activities. Once this light shines the conditioned thinking simply drops away as irrelevant. Ergo, all is seen directly as it is rather than through the screens and filters of the mind. Even the thoughts are now seen directly. We are left with a mystery which mind cannot fathom since this mystery cannot be accessed by thought. Instead of the cultural disease of living through thought there is "now" simply being.
Hi dee ho and piffle,
Subject: Re: eggsamples
From: ejLight@Light-Mission.org (E.J.)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 04:29:29 GMT
Greetings Victor, you wrote: -> I'm starting to see that my mind game is "When I understand logically what I am ->doing then I'll be able to find out what it's all about."
Ah, the very foundation of the Walls that keep us from Realizing/Recognizing our True Nature. Will a conditioned notion annihilate itself ? The very seeming need of the Intellectual apparatus as our Savior is a conditioned notion. It is what is *known* (contents of our mind) that we have to let go. A clean slate. It is like looking at whatever one is looking at for the very first time, and it is something that one knows absolutely nothing about. Just Observing, with bottom jaw agape, spellbound at the Wonder of whatever is looked at. Like the New Born Guru. And with that non-clinging non-desiring state of BEing Apperception of What-IS is established. Maintained by keeping the mind Silent, by emanating a Meditative state of mind into every aspect of our Life. Yet as long as we harbor conditioned ideas and meanings and notions of all sorts, we will always be distracted and thus not be able to maintain a Silent mind or a Still state of BEing.
->Once this light shines the conditioned thinking simply drops away as ->irrelevant.
This is True... but... before one gets to that point of being able to annihilate conditioned notions just by Recognizing them, one has had to arduously Painfully let go of those dearly beloved notions such as "When I understand logically". Be honest, it is not so easy to let go just because you Recognize it. At this stage in our Evolution/Involution humanity is basically a mental creature, and holds dominance over his whole life. To change all that and make the mind subservient to the ever anew Present Moment is not a simple matter. Some notions are Painful to let go because they are connected to emotions, and some connected to the past, or the future, and some connected to our Intellectual prowess. Pride, Desire, Intellect, Volition, Choice, Possession, Belief, Ignorance, all keep us at arm's length form ourSelf. Always chasing after our True Nature, which is nowhere other than where we ARE.
-> Instead of the cultural disease of living ->through thought there is "now" simply being.
Yes, Life Lived via Apperception of What-IS the always anew Eternal Infinite Present Moment IS Awakening, IS BEing.
Thank you for joining in with us Dear Friend.
Subject: Re: eggsamples
From: o.dodge@att.net
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:16:21 +0000 Cc: o.dodge@att.net
Hi Victor,
You wrote...
"When I understand logically what I am doing then I'll be able to find out what it's all about."
It's all rather maddening, isn't it?! Over the course of our entire lives, there's been one driving force behind every goal that we ever achieved - our minds - the ability to use our logic to move us from point "A" to point "B".
"I want a new car."
(Point "A")no car -> save money ->buy new car(point "B")
"I want to be thinner"
(Point"A")fat -> eat less -> thin (point "B")
"I want to experience enlightenment"
(point"a")asleep -> correct logic -> enlightenment("B")
The problem is - for some reason - using our regular course of action to achieve this last example NEVER seems to work. Why?
First - "you"/"I"/"we" will NEVER realize Awakening, because "you"/"I"/"we" are illusions - and are the very essence of being 'asleep'. We can't expect to move from point "A" (asleep) to point "B" (enlightenment) when we continually insist on dragging our point "A" with us!
Point "A" ("you"/"I"/"we" - being asleep) has to DISAPPEAR - so ALL that is left is point "B"(Awakening).
Enlightenment is realized ONLY when that illusion of "you"/"I"/"we" disappears.
A thought to entertain...
Imagine there are six on/off switches in front of you, and all are in the "on" position.
Switch #1 - sense of touch Switch #2 - sense of hearing Switch #3 - sense of sight Switch #4 - sense of smell Switch #5 - sense of taste Switch #6 - sense of reason/logic
These six senses are pretty much responsible for the creation of the illusion of there being a "you". They are the things we use to filter and define our 'reality' .
Now imagine that you flipped each of these switches from the "on" position to the "off" position. What would happen?
To your mind - such an action would represent "death" - because "you" would no longer exist - your mind sees these senses as the very core to life/consciousness itself. So your mind will resist doing this. - because it doesn't want "you" to die/disappear!
And on that score - the mind is half-right - because with all those switches thrown to the "off" position - the "you" WILL disappear. But strangely...
C O N S C I O U S N E S S D O E S N ' T !!!
It continues on! Pure consciousness. It's eternal. Oneness. It exists BEYOND - and is in NO WAY dependent on - there being a "you". It was there BEFORE you started your quest to discover it - and it will be there AFTER you've stopped.
But you just don't get to REALIZE it until you find a way to throw those switches to the "off" position.
love & grace,
oren
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